Mu kiganiro Perezida Joseph Kabila yagiranye na Jeune Afrique mbere y’umunsi umwe ngo habe amatora y’Umukuru w’Igihugu ku wa 30 Ukuboza 2018. yahishuye byinshi birimo abamwita Umunyarwanda, guhindura itegeko nshinga, anagereranya Katumbi n’umugambanyi: SOMA…..
JA: Bwa mbere kuva RDC ibonye ubwigenge yahinduye Perezida wayo binyuze mu matora. Nubwo urugendo rw’amatora rwajemo guhangana, kuri mwe ni impamvu yo kunyurwa?
Kabila: Navuga Yego na Oya. Ni yego kuko nizera ko nabitse isezerano rimaze imyaka igera kuri 18. Ni Oya kandi kuko nishimiye ko abandi bayobozi bazi RDC, Joseph Kasa-Vubu, Patrice Lumumba, Maréchal Mobutu na data Laurent-Désiré Kabila, na bo babona ihererekanyabutegetsi rinyuze mu mahoro.
JA: I Kinshasa no mu yindi mijyi hari ibyapa bikugaragaza nk’ “umubyeyi wa demokarasi muri RDC’’. Aya magambo y’abakunzi bawe uyafata nk’ukuri?
Kabila: Oya. Mu mboni yanjye umubyeyi wa Demokarasi muri RDC nsanga ari Patrice Lumumba nubwo atahawe amahirwe yo kubishyira mu bikorwa uko bikwiye.
Kuva mu 2001, nihaye intego yo kugarura demokarasi binyuze mu matora. Rwabaye urugendo rukomeye, rugoranye kandi rumeze nk’inzira y’inzitane. Mfite impamvu yo kwizera ko twatanze umusanzu wo kugarura demokarasi ariko sinabigizemo uruhare njyenyine.
JA: Muritegura kuva ku butegetsi nyuma y’imyaka 18, umubyeyi wawe yishwe arashwe ku wa 16 Mutarama 2001. Hari ubwo mwibuka kiriya gihe cyari giteye ubwoba?
Kabila: Ni film mbona nk’iyabaye ejo hashize. Nari ndi i Lubumbashi ndi kugenzura ingabo zari zoherejwe ku rugamba mu Ntambara ya kabiri yo muri RDC. Mu gitondo cyo ku wa 17 Mutarama ubwo navaga mu Nkambi ya Mura iri hafi ya Likasi, nahamagawe n’ushinzwe umutekano wari i Kinshasa.
Nahagaritse imodoka yanjye ngo numve neza. Yashakaga kumbwira ko Data yagabweho igitero ku munsi wabanje, asanzwe mu Ngoro ya Marbre. Nahise mpamagara Umunyamabanga wanjye wihariye mu Buyobozi Bukuru bw’Ingabo, ampamiriza ko yatwawe mu bitaro na kajugujugu.
Nasubiye i Lubumbashi ahagana saa cyenda. Nahavuye mfata indege igana i Kinshasa mpagera saa yine z’ijoro.
Mu bitaro bambwiye ko hasigaye icyizere kitarenga 2% ngo umubyeyi wanjye agume mu buzima. Hafashwe icyemezo cyo gukora ibishoboka byose ngo hageragezwe amahirwe ya nyuma yo koherezwa kuvurirwa i Harare ariko yari yakererewe.
JA: Ku wa 18 Mutarama, wagizwe Perezida usimbuye So. Ni nde wafashe kiriya cyemezo, wowe cyangwa inkoramutima za so?
Kabila: Bigomba kuvugwa uko biri. Iyicwa rya Perezida wa Repubulika mu gihugu kiri mu ntambara riragishegesha mu mpande zose.
Byari ibihe bidasanzwe, birimo urwikekwe rwinshi. Ku wa 18 Mutarama, Inama idasanzwe y’Abaminisitiri nari natumiwemo yarateranye mu gihe umurambo wa data wari utarakurwa muri Zimbabwe. Ni ho hafatiwe icyemezo cyo kungirira icyizere cyo gufata ubutegetsi.
JA: Mwarabyemeye. Byagenda bite mwongeye kubisabwa?
Kabila: Ni ikibazo cyiza kandi gikeneye gusubizwa. Kiriya gihe sinari mfite umwanya wo gutekereza, nagombaga guhita nsubiza. Igihugu cyari mu kaga. Nakoze nk’umusirikare woherejwe mu butumwa.
JA: Ibyavuye mu matora ya Perezida yo muri Nyakanga 2006 byafatwaga nk’ibyizewe. Mwitaga cyane ku kubungabunga amahoro, ubumwe bw’igihugu no kuzahura ubukungu,…kandi RDC yateye imbere muri izo ngeri zose. Habaye iki ngo igihugu cyinjire mu mvururu z’urudaca?
Kabila: Ndakwibutsa ko nubwo amatora yafatwaga nk’ayanyuze mu mucyo kandi yizewe, itorwa ryanjye ku nshuro ya kabiri mu 2006, ryakurikiwe n’imvururu zabereye i Kinshasa, zarushije ubukana izo mu 2011.
Mu by’ukuri, imyaka 18 ishize yagabanywa mu byiciro bitatu birimo 2001-2006, 2006-2011 na 2011-2018.
Intego yanjye nkuko nabivuze ku wa 26 Mutarama 2011 mu mbwirwaruhame ya mbere nagejeje ku gihugu yarumvikanaga. Ni ukongera kunga ubumwe bw’Abanye-Congo, kugarura ituze, gushyiraho uburyo bushya bwo kwagura ubukungu no gutegura amatora rusange.
Ubu butumwa bwagezweho nubwo Jean-Pierre Bemba wari umukandida yanze ibyavuye mu matora n’icyemezo cyo gukoresha intwaro.
Umuryango Mpuzamahanga wateye inkunga ibikorwa by’amatora ku kigero cya 90%, wemeye ibyavuye mu yo mu 2006 ndetse nta gushidikanya ko hari impamvu byakozwe.
Kuva mu 2006 kugera mu 2011, intego yacu yari iyo kongera kubaka igihugu ndetse byatumye nubaka umubano n’u Bushinwa ngo butere inkunga imishinga itanu ikomeye.
Igitekerezo cyari cyoroshye kuko kwari ukubona inguzanyo ya miliyari $9 ku ngurane yo gucukura ibirombe bitatu by’amabuye y’agaciro mu buryo buhuriweho. Gécamines (Sosiyete icukura amabuye y’agaciro muri RDC ibarizwa i Lubumbashi) yari ifite uburenganzira bwa 32 % mu gihe sosiyete zo mu Bushinwa zahawe 68 %.
Nyuma y’igitutu cy’Ikigega Mpuzamahanga cy’Imari (FMI) na Banki y’Isi, iyi nguzanyo yagejejwe kuri miliyari $6. Icyo gihe imishinga yarakorwaga.
Igihe cyarageze twinjira mu matora yo mu Ugushyingo 2011. Nafashe imyanzuro yo kwihagararaho, naje kutumvikana n’umuryango mpuzamahanga by’umwihariko ibihugu bikize ku guhindura abafatanyabikorwa mu by’ubukungu.
Nk’igihugu cyari cyongeye kwaguka, twumvise bikwiye kuzamura uruhare rwacu mu gutera inkunga amatora tukava ku 10% mu 2006, tukagera kuri 60% mu 2011. Twanabonye uburyo bushya bwagenwe n’Inteko Ishinga Amategeko, Umutwe w’Abadepite bwo kuvugurura amatora, biva ku nshuro ebyiri biba imwe mu kugabanya ikiguzi cyakoreshwaga mu matora ya perezida.
Ku ngingo ya nyuma, imitekerereze yanjye yari yoroshye. Ni kuva ryari demokarasi yasumbye iterambere? Ntibyumvikana. Icyakurikiyeho buri wese arakizi. Kiriya gihe naratsinze, uwo twari duhanganye, nyakwigendera Étienne Tshisekedi wiyamamaje amparabika, akoresheje amagambo asesereza ntiyemeye ibyavuye mu matora.
JA: Mu bikunze kuvugwa binakomeye cyane, harimo ko utari umwana wa so, ko ufite inkomoko mu Rwanda, n’ibindi.
Kabila: Undusha kuba Umunye-Congo, ukunda igihugu kundusha, uwo ntabaho. Data yahoraga atubwira ubudasiba ko ikintu cy’ingenzi ari urukundo rw’igihugu cyawe, ibindi ni inyongera.
Ntekereza ko Étienne Tshisekedi cyangwa abari bamukikije bashyigikiraga amagambo ye akakaye, rimwe na rimwe yakurikirwaga n’imvururu.
Ku munsi ubanziriza amatora, itsinda ry’Akanama k’Umutekano kayobowe na Ambasaderi w’u Buyapani kaje kundeba mbere yo guhura na Tshisekedi.
Umudipolomate w’u Buyapani namuhaye nimero yanjye ya telefoni, musaba kuyimpera mugenzi wanjye ngo tubashe kuvugana nk’Abanye-Congo.
Ambasaderi yarayimuhaye ariko sinigeze nakira telefoni ye impamagara. Tshisekedi ntiyamfataga nk’Umunye-Congo.
JA: Twihuse ku gice cya gatatu cya 2011-2018. Havuzwe ibiganiro bigaragaza icyifuzo cyawe cyo guhindura itegeko nshinga ukaguma ku butegetsi. Ni ibinyoma?
Kabila: Iki gihe cyari nk’impinduramatwara yo kwihutisha iterambere ry’imishinga itanu, gusubiramo uburyo bw’imiyoborere no gushora imari mu bikorwa remezo.
Ikibazo cyabayemo ni uko mu 2012, twahuye n’intambara yatewe n’Umutwe wa M23 mu Burasirazuba bw’igihugu. Byadutwaye imyaka ibiri ngo tugarure imbaraga za gisirikare mu biganza byacu. Byadutwaye imbaraga, tukatanga amafaranga tugura imodoka z’intambara, intwaro n’amasasu kandi twari twashyiriweho ibihano n’Umuryango w’Ibihugu by’u Burayi (EU).
Nyuma byari bikenewe ko dutangira urundi rugamba rwo guhangana n’Abarwanyi ba ADF-Nalu bakibarizwa mu Majyaruguru y’igihugu. RDC ni igihugu gifite iby’ibanze byinshi. Iki ntitwigeze tugihitamo.
JA: Nta gushidikanya ariko ntimurasubiza ikibazo cyanjye…
Kabila: Ndakigarukaho. Nta na rimwe nigeze ngambira kugerageza guhindura Itegeko Nshinga ngo ngume ku butegetsi. Ntibyabayeho.
Iyo mbishaka, byari kunyorohera gukoresha amahirwe y’amavugurura y’uburyo bwo gutora bwagizwe inshuro imwe mu 2011, ngasaba ko umubare wa manda za perezida uvugururwa. Sinabikoze.
JA: Mu 2015, Guverinoma yawe yagerageje gushyikiriza Inteko umushinga w’itegeko muri ubwo buryo. Ntiyari kubikora, utabyemeye.
Kabila: Iki gitekerezo cyavuye mu bantu barimo abari inkoramutima zanjye nka Évariste Boshab wumvaga ko afite ingingo z’amategeko zimurengera ku kuvuga ko manda za perezida zidafite ishingiro. Bwari uburenganzira bwabo.
Ntibyigeze byubakira kuri politiki cyangwa ihame ryemeranyijweho. Iyo biba ukuri sinari gukomeza kwihishira, nari kubyerura.
Ibisigaye birashimangira ko RDC ikeneye amavugurura yihuse by’umwihariko arebana n’Itegeko Nshinga. Ntibyumvikana uko Abanye-Congo bahorwa gusoma Itegeko Nshinga basa nk’aho amaboko aziritse mu mugongo, badashobora kurikoraho.
Reba urugendo rwacu rw’amatora. Bizadutwara hagati ya miliyoni $600 na $700 mu myaka ine kuva mu 2015 kugeza mu 2019, aho abakandida-depite 37 000 biyamamaje ku rwego rw’intara n’igihugu. Ntibyumvikana neza mu gihe ibanze rya byose kigomba kuba iterambere.
Tugomba gukanguka, tukabihindura byose kuko bitabaye ibyo inzozi za demokarasi zizageza igihugu mu kangaratete.
JA: Mwakoranye n’abantu barimo n’ababiyomoyeho bashaka ko muhangana. Urugero ruzwi ni urwa Moïse Katumbi. Ntimumufata nk’uwabagambaniye?
Kabila: We n’abandi amateka azabibabaza. Mu myaka ishize mwambajije izina ry’umunyamateka w’icyitegererezo kuri njye, mbabwira ko ari Yesu Kirisitu.
Yesu yari azi ko mu ntumwa ze 12, umwe witwa Yuda azamugambanira. Yari azi ko Petero azamuburira kuri ubwo bugambanyi. Byose yari abizi ariko nta na kimwe yahinduye ku byo Se yari yamubwiye gukora.
Moïse Katumbi ni Yuda Isikariyoti muto. Yangambaniye, atanashyizemo ikinyabupfura. Nk’umuntu wari uzi ibyo angomba, yashoboraga kuza akambwira ati “Nafashe icyemezo, ndashaka gukora politiki mu buryo butandukanye, nkiyamamariza kuba Umukuru w’Igihugu.’’
Nari kumusubiza nti “Ni byiza cyane, komereza aho kandi amahirwe masa.’’ Yahisemo indi nzira yatekerezaga, nanjye mfata uwanjye mwanzuro.
JA: Yezu yaravuze ngo ugukubise urushyi ku itama ry’iburyo ujye umuhindurira n’irindi
Kabila: Ntabwo ndi Kristu. Nkunda amahoro ariko sinzi umunyamahoro.
JA : Kuva wajya ku butegetsi umubano wawe na Kiliziya waranzwe no kutizerana no kutavuga rumwe, kandi Kiliziya ifite ingufu muri RDC, kuki mutafatanyije?
Kabila : Kugira ngo ubyumve, ni ngombwa kumenya ko Kiliziya Gatolika ifite amateka muri iki gihugu. Imyitwarire yayo mu gihe cy’abakoloni b’Ababiligi ndetse no mu kurwanira ubwigenge, bigaragaza imiterere yayo mu gihugu.
Nyuma Mobutu na Mzee (Laurent Kabila), bagiranye ibibazo nayo. Icy’ukuri ni uko RDC n’Abanye-Congo bigenga, Kiliziya ntiyabashije kwitandukanya n’abakoloni.
Ikibihamya ni uburyo yihaye uburenganzira bwo kuvangira Komisiyo y’Amatora igatangaza ibyayo byayavuyemo. Mu 2006, 2011 na 2019…hari ikindi gihugu twigeze tubibonamo? Ndibaza nka Kiliziya yo mu Bufaransa, u Butaliyani zafashe ubuyobozi bw’igihugu, ninde wabyemera? RDC ni Repubulika ntabwo ari Leta igendera ku iyob0kamana.
JA :Imyemerere yawe ni iyihe?
Kabila : Ndi Umukristu. Sindi Umugatolika, Umuprotestanti, Umu-évangélique n’ibindi byose biri mu kwemera. Umukristu wumva ko agomba guha Imana ibyayo n’ibya Kayizari akabimuha. Ubwo nakiraga abayobozi b’inama y’Abepiskopi, narababwiye nti’’ Kiliziya igomba kuba mu mudugudu. Murashaka gutwika umudugudu, mwibwira se ko Kiliziya izasigara?’’.
JA : Mu myaka 18 umaze ku butegetsi, wahuye n’ibibazo bibiri by’itumanaho, yaba ku baturage bawe bari bamenyereye abayobozi bagira indoto ndende nka Mobutu na Papa wawe, ndetse n’icy’abaturanyi n’imiryango mpuzamahanga bakunze kukunenga gukora wenyine. Wari ubizi?
Kabila: Ndumva ibyo urimo kuvuga. Ariko ugomba no kwita ku miterere yanjye uko meze n’uko nahoze. Kujya ku butegetsi ntabwo byampinduye cyangwa ngo bitume mpinduka Umunye-Congo mushya, ari nayo yari intego yacu mu 2001. Simvuga byinshi, byashoboka ko ari intege nkeya.
Ariko ntekereza ko uburyo bwiza buboneye bwo kuvuga ari ugukora. Uravuga umubano wacu n’abaturanyi bacu,nibyo kuva mu 2012 hari ibibazo twagiranye na bamwe muri bo, twafashe icyemezo cya ‘Mbere na mbere Congo’. Mu rwego rwo kwirinda, ubukungu, dipolomasi, byose RDC iza mbere. Ni hehe hari ikibazo?.
Ku miryango mpuzamahanga, ntabwo ari ikibazo cy’itumanaho ahubwo ni icyo kunyurwa. Guhera ku biro byayo i Washington, New York, Bruxelles, Londres cyangwa i Paris, bamwe bumva ko bazi RDC neza kuruta twebwe.
Bumva ko ntabandi bafatanyabikorwa twagira batari bo. Intumwa idasanzwe ya Amerika, yambajije icyo ubutegetsi bwabo bwadukorera ntaramusubije nti’’ Tumaze imyaka mirongo itanu tubumva, igihe kirageze ngo natwe twiyumve’’. Iyi miryango y’Abanyaburayi n’Abanyamerika yadusezeranyije byinshi ariko basohoje isezerano gake.
Muribuka mbere y’amatora ya 2006 biyemeje gushyira mu bikorwa gahunda yo gufasha RDC kongera kwiyubaka nyuma y’intambara ‘Plan Marshall’, bafasha Guverinoma y’inzibacyuho.
Ntabwo ndi ikigoryi. Sinigeze nta n’isegonda kuri ibyo binyoma. Abo bita abafatanyabikorwa bakoze ibinyuranye bashatse kuzitira iterambere ryacu ndetse n’ubushobozi bwo kurinda ubusugire bw’igihugu cyacu.
Sinshobora kugirana umubano utomoye n’abantu bagenzwa n’inyungu zabo, bagendera ku magambo bahawe ku bukungu bwacu hanyuma bagafata ibyemezo bashingiye ku binyoma, kuri bavuze, raporo z’imiryango itari iya leta.
JA: Uyu muryango unenga uherutse gushimira umwe mu baturage bawe. Dr Mukwege Denis, umuha igihembo kitiriwe Nobel. Ibi hari ikibazo byaguteye?
Kabila: Dr Mukwege yafashije cyane abagore muri Kivu y’Amajyepfo kongera kwiyubaka yaba mu buryo bw’umubiri ndetse n’imitekerereze.
Ni ibintu utahakana. Ubwo yakiraga igihembo cya Sakharov mu 2014, yaje kukinyereka, naramushimiye kandi mutera akanyabugabo ko gukomeza ibikorwa bye.
Gusa ibyakurikiyeho, uburyo hari imiryango itari iya leta imufasha mu biganiro bya politiki, biteye ikibazo. Denis Mukwege nta muziro afite wo gukora politiki. Nishimiye igihembo cyitiriwe Nobel yahawe agikwiye ariko azitonde ntikizatume aba igikoresho.
JA : Niba twemera ibyavuye mu bushakashatsi bwatangajwe mu 2017 na Bloomberg ndetse n’Umuryango w’Abanyamerika ko umuryango wawe ufite uruhare runini mu bukungu bwa RDC. Ibi bikaba byaratumaga utarekura ubutegetsi kuko washakaga uko wakomeza kubugenzura na nyuma. Ni iki wabivugaho?
Kabila: Ndashaka kukubwira nk’Abanyamerika ‘sinjya mvuga ku binyoma’. Ariko reka ikibyimbye kimeneke, mbwira urwego runaka rw’ubukungu bwa RDC ruyobowe n’umuntu wo mu muryango wanjye. Ubwishingizi, oya, Mine, oya, ingufu, oya, itumanaho se, oya, ubwubatsi se, oya, amabanki, oya ndetse n’ubwikorezi reka da!
Mu 2004 hari ikompanyi y’ubwikorezi bw’indege ‘Hewa Bora’ nari mfite nyuma y’uko yari iya Data, ikinyamakuru cyo mu Bufaransa cyahamijwe icyaha cyo gusebanya.
JA: Uretse ko umwe mu bavandimwe bawe Francis Selemani Mtwale, yayoboye kugeza muri Gicurasi 2018, Banki ya BGFIBank i Kinshasa…
Kabila: Nibyo. Seleman yize ibijyanye n’imari n’ubukungu. Nyuma yo kwiga muri Leta zunze Ubumwe za Amerika, yaraje ashinga rya BGFI mu gihugu. Ariko murabizi ko iyi banki atari iyo muri RDC ni iyo muri Gabon, nta n’ubwo ari nyirayo.
Icyo nababwiza ukuri ni uko guhera mu 2016 ni uko nashatse kwitera icyuma uko bishoboka. Abakuru b’ibihugu bya Afurika benshi bafite imitungo hanze. Njye ntayo. Yaba muri Amerika, u Bubiligi, u Bufaransa, u Bwongereza, ntabwo ari ikosa ryo kubishaka, ntacyo babona.
Byose turabivuga. Umuryango wanjye nanjye ubwanjye ntitwata igihe cyacu tujyana abo bavuga mu butabera. Kandi ugiye kureba nta n’umwe uri mu butegetsi yaba Minisiteri, Guverineri, Umuyobozi w’Umujyi, cyangwa muri guverinoma y’iki gihugu. Nta na hamwe.
JA : Bamwe bari mu bucuruzi…
Kabila : Yego Bamwe muri bo ni abacuruzi. None? Hari ibimenyetso bigaragaza se ko hari ikimenyane bagirirwa!, Ni Abanye-Congo nk’abandi kandi abashoramari ba mbere muri iki gihugu ntibagomba kuba Abashinwa, Abahinde, AbanyaLibani cyangwa abandi bo mu Burengerazuba bw’Isi, bagomba kuba Abanye-Congo. Njye ubwanjye nashoye imari yanjye muri iki gihugu kandi nzakomeza kubikora, nta n’umuntu ushobora kuzabimbuza.
JA : Muzakora iki nimuva ku butegetsi?
Kabila : RDC ni nk’uruganda runini rw’imirimo. Aho ari ho hose abandi babona ibibazo, njye mpambona amahirwe. Aho nashora imari mu nyungu z’igihugu cyanjye ni henshi cyane, ntihabarika.
JA : Muzabikora nk’umuntu usanzwe; usanzwe ufite ibikingi bigari i Kingakati n’i Katanga?
Kabila : Oya, nzabikora ahubwo nk’umuntu ushaka iterambere. Sinigeze nkora ubucuruzi. Ni ukuri ni byo, nkunda ubuhinzi ariko hari n’ibindi nakora.
JA : Abanye-Congo benshi iki kibazo bati “Ese muzareka uzabasimbura ayobore mu bwisanzure busesuye n’aho yaba aturuka mu batavuga rumwe n’ubutegetsi?’’.
Kabila : Itegeko Nshinga riratomoye kuri iyo ngingo aho rivuga neza ku bubasha Perezida watowe ahabwa na ryo. Nzubaha Itegeko Nshinga rero nk’uko naryubashye kuva kera na kare.
JA : Muba mushaka kuvuga iyo muvuze ko muri inkeragutabara y’igihugu?
Kabila : Buri Munye-Congo ni inkeragutabara y’igihugu cye. Ibindi, mwe guhangayika. Perezida bizatangazwa ko yatowe azaba Perezida wa Repubulika Iharanira Demokarasi ya Congo kandi afite ububasha bwo gushyira mu bikorwa nta nkomyi gahunda azaba yiyemeje.
JA : Aramutse afashe ibyemezo mutemeranyaho cyangwa bidahuye n’inyungu zanyu?
Kabila : Nizera ko hazaba hari hagati yanjye na we uburyo bwo kuganira. Imyaka 18 namaze nyoboye iki gihugu impa ubushobozi bwo kuba natanga inama z’ingirakamaro igihe nzisabwe.
JA : Ibintu nk’ibyo kwa Poutine-Medvedev-Poutine ni ibintu bigushimisha?
Kabila : [Araseka] Sinzi Ikirusiya. Birasaba ko nigererayo.
JA : Kuki mwateretse ubwanwa bugakura?
Kabila : Iki ni ikibazo cy’ubuzima bwanjye bwite. Ubwanwa bwanjye ni ukwivumbagatanya k’umutwe w’inyeshyamba undimo imbere. Hashize imyaka ibiri n’igice nibaza ibibazo byinshi ku nkomoko y’urwango abantu bangirira. Byatumye muri njye habamo ibyiyumvo byo kwivumbagatanya. Ubu bwanwa rero ni nk’ubw’inyeshyamba nakomeje kuba kugeza ku iherezo.
